382 Audio.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

382 Audio.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Maj. Phoenix: I created our first drone, a great first airplane. So this kill zone create war of drones, not war of humans. Drones try to hit our drones.

Craig Smith: That's better than humans and other humans.

Maj. Phoenix: Help us to save a human life. If I see enemy soldier, I understand that it's my enemy. It's not a human, it's enemy. And they are in our land.

Craig Smith: It's the future for ground warfare. I think it's.

Maj. Phoenix: A future of drones and many planes and drones, a future.

Craig Smith: King. Why don't you introduce yourself, uh, to listeners, some of your background, what you were, you were doing before the war, how you got involved in that?

Maj. Phoenix: My name is Yuri. My callsign is Phoenix. I'm a member of National Guard of Ukraine, of Lasar’s group unit.

Craig Smith: And what were you doing before the war?

Maj. Phoenix: I have my own IT business.

Craig Smith: Oh, okay. Great.

Maj. Phoenix: Um, from 1991, I started, uh, to work with computers and network technologies. And, uh, before I have my own IT company, I provide services for my customers. It was cloud service, virtualization, cybersecurity, computer networks, and so on.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Were you involved at all in AI before the war? Um.

Maj. Phoenix: Not AI, just a modern network and computer technologies. So all that related to computer networks, uh, VPN tunnels and, uh, maybe some electronic devices. It's, it's my direction. I'm familiar with all of this. I know how it works, how I can use it, how I can combine different devices to some, Some big projects, how to get a result, what they want.

Craig Smith: Then. How did you join Lazar's group?

Maj. Phoenix: From first days of full scale invasion? Uh, I understand that I need to protect my country, to protect my city, to protect civilians from all of this. And I spent two days to move my family far away in a safe place. And after that, returned to Kyiv, uh, from maybe the first day I joined to a local defense and start, uh. Start my night shifts on nearest fortification. Others want to to get in Kyiv.

Craig Smith: Right when they were coming in from Belarus.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes, yes.

Craig Smith: Did you know him before?

Maj. Phoenix: No, no. Uh, I had experience, uh, operating drones, uh, in 2010. I built my first drone to expect buildings at that time. I have one big customer, and I support them by, uh, video surveillance system, security system, and computer networks, networks. And I need to expect all these buildings, uh, from air. So I create my, I build my first drone with GoPro camera to fly over this building and control, uh, cable systems and roof and, uh, all technical devices that are Located in on these buildings, I see. So when war started, I understand that we need to use modern technologies, maybe drones, to fly and destroy our enemy remotely.

Craig Smith: Lazaro's group was the first to use drones, is that right? In in, uh, as, as a, as a weapon. I mean, before that, there was, uh, reconnaissance drones. Yes, yes. But can you talk about when the decision was to arm the drones? And was that Lazar's group that did that first, or were there other units in the field that were experimenting?

Maj. Phoenix: We get a first, I think, um, our drone was the first real weapon that can destroy enemy vehicles. And we show this result for everyone. And after that, I think other units start using drones as a weapon. And our our military understand that drone is a real weapon.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Because the first time people saw this was when the Russians were on the road from Belarus, I think, and there was a long convoy that was stopped. And, uh, and then you started sending drones to destroy the tanks. Was that Lazar's group?

Maj. Phoenix: No. At that time we have no drones at all. And only ISR drones, small drones like Mavic, DJI, we, we other units who, who had such drones, uh, use these type of drones for reconnaissance only. Only at that time, we have no other Uh, devices that can damage tanks or other vehicles.

Craig Smith: Yeah, I thought I remember seeing, uh, tanks being hit on that in that convoy, but yes. Was that from drones or was that something else?

Maj. Phoenix: No, our special forces do that.

Craig Smith: I see. Okay. When was where was the first use of drones as a weapon?

Maj. Phoenix: Um, maybe it was May 22nd, our first, uh, missions, successful missions where we can, uh, hit some targets.

Craig Smith: And what sector was that?

Maj. Phoenix: Um, it was the Zaporizhzhia direction.

Craig Smith: And what was the first technology I remember, um, reading the lasers, uh, developed a drop, uh, system.

Maj. Phoenix: Our main idea, the main idea of our commander was, uh, operate remotely and destroy enemy vehicle like a tank or armored vehicle or anti-aircraft system. All type of enemy vehicles that can damage, uh, our military position. So we start, uh, develop this project, how to do it remotely and, uh, main idea to use, uh, satellites connection. So we get our first sterling and try to, to do some devices and try to create some software that can. Use this sterling with, uh, big drones, big, big quadcopters.

Craig Smith: Okay. But, but the progression was you started modifying DJI drones. No no no. They were from the beginning. A home, a Ukrainian build.

Maj. Phoenix: We create a technology how we can interconnect Starlink with, uh, generally speaking, a flight controller inside big agricultural drone. After that start, uh, we want to, to find a manufacturer of big frames, big drones, agriculture, and ask, uh, to install our, uh, special devices with Starlink on this drone to get ability to operate, to operate manually. Uh, and we spend maybe more than four months to create a first prototype of this drone. After that, they start, uh, using use this drawn on the battlefield and try to do our first flights to destroy our first targets.

Craig Smith: So I thought, uh, so you were using Starlink beginning in 2022? Yes. A lot of the FPV drones, uh, kamikaze drones are, uh, are using, uh, radio link to, uh, to the controller. Uh, weren't you also using this radio link, uh, in some of the drones, or is lasers specifically focused on satellite links?

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, we focused on satellite links. Uh, because, uh, uh, we understand what we have a lot of opportunities when we use satellite link, there is no limitation by landscape. We can fly far away and low altitude, uh, As far as we can. Only one limitation is battery capacity.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: And we understand that, uh, drone that, uh, was very popular at that time can bring, uh, only one munition with, uh, small munition. It's not enough to damage a vehicle such as tank. So we understand that we need to, to invent some device that can bring about five kilo payload, not less than three units of this, uh, munition. And we understand that our primary targets is tanks or maybe artillery or other enemy vehicles that can create a big damage for us. Yeah. And we start, uh, work on direction that help us to increase range and some some maybe software upgrades that help. Our pilots to fly easy and control our drone in any situation when we have, uh, jamming or. Without Gnss. So we start flying manually only what we need. Uh, it's a connection to our drone to. Get picture from our camera and control. So our first step is it was one, only one pilot for one drone. And after that, our pilot pilot crew consists of two persons, a pilot and navigator. Navigator. Uh, always know where our drone located because a navigator. Look at The camera compare with satellite maps or other information and using landmarks. Always know where we are and help pilot to to correct direction of flying and help them to find this target that we need and help. While pilots start aiming. Yeah. So it controls wind direction, wind speed, and help to maybe calculate this, this position where when we start to do our first drop.

Craig Smith: Okay, maybe for my audience, you can explain the different kinds of drones. There's FPV drones, which are, uh, you're the pilot is looking through the camera of the drone, right? Uh, then their interceptor drones to knock down other drones or aircraft. Uh, and there are kamikaze drones, which, uh, have a warhead, uh, in them, have a munition in them and fly into a target that can be a kamikaze drone, right? I mean, that can be an FPV drone.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. A FPV drone is a separate direction because it's very small and cheap. And I think the main goal of FPV drones is destroy small small target, not armored target and enemy personnel. It's the best for these tasks. Uh, and this drone can fly from for, for short distance. It's about maybe from from ten to maybe 20km. Uh, So FPV drone help us to control our first part of frontline nearest area and protect from enemy personnel and uh, not armored vehicle like a cars like uh, maybe fuel tanks and so on, so on and uh, fortified position of our enemy. Uh, next step is, uh, heavy bombers that can fly far away and destroy enemy vehicle, uh, enemy fortified position, enemy personnel, and everything that they can find. And long distance, uh, kamikaze drone fly for longer distance. It's about 70, maybe up to 100km and can destroy any targets that they can find. In that area. So I think the most important in all of this is I sell drones because they control this area. They they can find targets and control of movement of this target before we can fly to that position to destroy this target.

Craig Smith: So I'm sorry, in ISR means ISR.

Maj. Phoenix: It's a it's a mostly it's a plane with gimbal camera with zoom and, uh, I drone main main idea. They try to find our target, the control area, analyze, uh, pictures and try to free main tasks of this drone. So, uh, they fly and control, uh, special area where we can use our, uh. Drones to. To destroy targets. The main idea they. They need to find targets.

Craig Smith: But you started with the heavy bombers. Is that what you're saying? Yes. When did you start developing the armed FPV drones?

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, first step is developing of, uh, heavy bombers with Starlink. And after that, when we have, uh, maybe more than ten, ten bombers and we start, uh, fly simultaneously on different direction.

Craig Smith: Mhm.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, from different position from our frontline, we understand what we need more targets. We need more information about targets because we can do more. We can destroy more targets. Only limitation for that time. It's information about our enemy enemy position and location of these targets. So we start to develop a direction of Isaac drones. Uh, our first drone was, uh, playing football. Playing with camera? Uh, no, with, uh, with, uh, photo photo camera. And we fly, uh, alone, um, area of interest. And after that, get this, uh, pictures and try to find some enemy targets on these pictures. After that, we start developed this, uh, direction and create, uh, planes with video, video camera. So, uh, we start new, we create a new step because we have online connection to this camera and, uh, can control area of interest in real time if we need to, uh, if we, uh, understand what we have, uh, some target signature, we can, we can zoom in this area and understand what is this? Is this tank or is this armored vehicle or any different type of target? Uh, so after that, we can create a ISR unit inside our after that, they started, uh, develop the subunit of drones and, uh, get more airplanes. Uh, and, uh, that place start flying, uh, on all front line. So next step was, uh, increase in the number of crews and, uh, all the screws was placed at, uh, on all front line. So every ten kilometers now we have our ground crew with big bombers, and every 20km we have a crew of ISR planes or drones. So the size of drones cover area, uh, up to 70km, uh, from borderline. And, uh, our big bombers, uh, can, can fly up to 35km and they don't beg for a lot. And we have a special designed model that can fly, uh, one way mission and distance of this flight is up to 65km.

Craig Smith: What people in the West are most familiar with are the fives. Did you then develop fives or was that somebody else that developed the five?

Maj. Phoenix: No. All devices that we use, uh, we developed. So we create a technical specification for manufacturers, send them this information and create an engineering team. And together we work on development of this devices. So after using in real battle condition, we give feedback for engineers, for manufacturers and ask them to do some changes. If we if we need. And after that, together we examine the results. They analyze, uh, maybe some technical information, telemetry logs and so on to understand how we can upgrade our drones. What we can do to fly on bigger distance. Or how we can help our pilots to. To be more effective. How to do the aiming process? More simple. Now we have special design software that can help our pilots to hit the targets when they're moving.

Craig Smith: When did you start using these smaller drones that are armed?

Maj. Phoenix: As I mentioned before, our main goal is armored vehicle. But maybe. One year ago, maybe. Maybe two years ago, we started using FPV because we understand that using big expensive drones to hit enemy personnel. It's it's not good, right? It's not effective. So we start using FB to destroy all that we can find. And maybe first ten kilometres from frontline.

Craig Smith: In your arsenal today. What's the. Is it mostly heavy bombers? Is it mostly FB? Uh, is it mostly ISR? Is it I mean, are you where do you stand in that? How do you divide up your your resources?

Maj. Phoenix: Now we use a different type of drones. Uh, this drone can cover a distance from maybe ten kilometers up to. 65 or 70km. So first of all, it's free. It's the first part of frontline, maybe first, uh, now we're using fiber optics so we can fly up to maybe 30km. So HPV covers first part of this area and mostly hit enemy personnel, right? Uh, after that, uh, other part of this area covered by heavy bombers up to 65km. All this area controls by ISR planes. It helps us to search target, uh, confirm destroying of this target and control all this area. So we have, uh, interceptors that control, uh, area near our takeoff point to protect our crews, uh, from enemy drones or enemy kamikaze drone or other enemy drones that can create some, some damage. And, uh, Also, we use, uh, kamikaze drones to strike different targets in distance near 70km.

Craig Smith: I mean, I know the Shaheed drones that that Russia has been using, uh, do not have very precise onboard targeting. Uh, and so they're, they're, they're given a target area and, and then they hit the area. But there's no, this is what I understand. No feedback to the controller. Uh, is that right? I mean, how did the shaheed's work? And, uh, is in, in the interceptors on the, on the front lines where you have these units based, uh, are they, uh, what kind of interceptors are they are they. Are they. Autonomous targeting or how does how does that work?

Maj. Phoenix: Interceptors is a different type of drones because they need to fly on very high speed.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, so interception of it's it's a different it's not related to, uh, tasks, uh, on frontline. Yeah. So we have a special design drones to intercept the jets and we have experience how to do this. And now we increase the number of crews who work, uh, in this direction.

Craig Smith: Incoming drones, uh, targeting Kyiv, for example, that, that you're still using or you the military, the Ukrainian military is still using, uh, human controlled machine guns to try and knock down those drones. That seems like a very difficult problem.

Maj. Phoenix: Now we use all available devices and all opportunities. How to intercept your head?

Craig Smith: Yeah. Do you know anything about.

Maj. Phoenix: Drones and machine guns and ground crews? Everything that we can do.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Do you do you, uh. Are you familiar with Eric Schmidt's swift beat?

Maj. Phoenix: Yes, I know about this project, but it's a different topic.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Meaning it's too sensitive to talk about or. Or it's.

Maj. Phoenix: No, we talk about lasers. I know many interesting information about other units.

Craig Smith: Uh, yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Other technologies, other devices. But I don't want to discuss this now.

Craig Smith: And I was asking, so you have the heavy bombers interspersed with ISR? You have interceptor drones around your units and then you have FPV. Are the FPV. Together with the heavy bombers or are they spaced.

Maj. Phoenix: Along separate sub units. So uh it's a separate direction. We have a different direction and uh, we use a different type of drones, uh, for, for these tasks.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And all of these drones to date, uh, are controlled, uh, through a, a screen. There's no autonomous targeting yet, is there in, in the laser group arsenal or do you have autonomous targeting or even autonomous navigation?

Maj. Phoenix: And now we use, uh, manual control, remote control, mostly, uh, big bombers controlled remotely. It helps our pilot be more efficient. They allocated an inquired situation. They can concentrate on aiming, on flying. They. Not thinking they. They don't need to thinking about their safety.

Craig Smith: Right.

Maj. Phoenix: It it's uh, more resultative and, uh, other benefits that one pilot can control drones on different directions if we need. So. I think it's, it's best that we can do.

Craig Smith: Yeah. But, uh, I've talked to a lot of people who are, who are developing, uh, AI navigation and AI targeting. I mean, the, the. The future is you Send off 100 drones. They know where they're going. They have an on board navigation. They have a camera with object recognition and they recognize the target. This is all autonomously and and destroy the target. You're not there yet. Is that right?

Maj. Phoenix: No. We try to use manual control because in any condition we know that we get a result because all AI devices that help us, uh, to create this autonomous flight group of our drones, uh, now it's, uh, I think it's a, it's not enough the quality of these devices, uh, in the middle. So Or sometimes they can do what we want. And, uh, in. Kamikaze drones usually used AI feature that can lock, target and help, uh, pilot to. To hit this target because, uh, last miles, it's very hard to control. We lose our radio control with our drone because of limitation of landscape. And this AI system help us to fly directly to target and hit this target.

Craig Smith: And that AI module, uh, is that being produced in Ukraine or are you importing that? Um.

Maj. Phoenix: As I know many men and manufacturers of these devices, uh, create this device by themselves. They create a software and the software work on small computers, like a Raspberry Pi or other small devices with a camera. And this device analyze pictures from camera and try to find, uh, target, uh, signature. And after that send control command to directly to flight controller to, uh, operate this drone.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Because what I'm interested in is how artificial intelligence is entering the battlefield. But from everyone I talk to, it sounds like it's being tested, it's being developed, but it's not really being deployed, am I wrong?

Maj. Phoenix: This technology is deployed now and, uh, many manufacturers work on it and try to create a new devices. So I think this technologies is one of most important technologies. So I think, uh, radio links, uh, AI systems, uh, and maybe battery technologies, uh, it's a future of drones because battery capacity is limitation for distance. Yes. Ai help us for aiming without, uh, interaction with pilot when we have no, uh, stable connection to drone and, uh, radio link, uh, radio control system help us to operate these drones when we need to fly to special area where our targets are located.

Craig Smith: The fiber optic, you know, this unspooling thread that can go 30km or even 40km. Who developed that? When did that start?

Maj. Phoenix: This technology comes from telecommunication. It's just a fiber that usually covered up other protected shell part of cable. The core of cable and uh, next, uh.

Craig Smith: The, the the covering. Yeah. But but, but when an fpv, it's, it's, it's just the fiber optic. It has no cover. Is that.

Maj. Phoenix: Right? I try to say it again. So fiber optics, uh, in HPV drones, uh, comes from telecommunication. So it's, it's usual technology inside cables that bring internet to our homes. So Manufacturers of fiber optics just create this big spools of this fibers without shells.

Craig Smith: Right?

Maj. Phoenix: So it's usual.

Craig Smith: Right? But who had the idea to hook it up to a drone?

Maj. Phoenix: I don't know who started this, but, uh, this technology help us to avoid jamming.

Craig Smith: Jamming? Yeah. Are the Russians also using fiber optics? Yes. And they're also using Starlink.

Maj. Phoenix: And they start using Starlink. Yes.

Craig Smith: Yeah. So it's kind of a race between Russian technologists and Ukrainian technologists.

Maj. Phoenix: I think it's competition in technology. So, uh, if we start using some technology after some time, then our drones was, uh, heated in enemy area. They get this drone, expect All inside and try to understand how it works. And after that, start using this type of technologies in their drones.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Yeah. So many people think that if someone talk about this, uh, public, um, some interview or after this information, uh, appears in, in public access, uh, in YouTube, our enemy after a few days, start using it. It's not true because they usually try to get, uh, our devices and understand how it works, how we can do this, analyze this. And only after that, after months, maybe, uh, they only try to use it. And if, uh, this usage, uh. Uh, have results, they try to scale it.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Just the changing nature of warfare, you know, in the in the Middle Ages it was swords and then bows and arrows. Uh, you know, which had a certain range. And then eventually, uh, they developed, uh, you know, guns, rifles, machine guns, machine guns, and the range keeps getting longer. I mean, what's the range of, uh, of a, of a general issue assault rifle in the Army. Uh, I don't know what guns you're using, but what's the range for a weapon that a soldier is carrying today?

Maj. Phoenix: I don't know, because our unit operates only drones.

Craig Smith: Only drones.

Maj. Phoenix: Drone units. I think the drones is the highest level of evolution of all weapons.

Craig Smith: That's right. Now. And so the the drones with. 400m for Kalashnikov. Okay. And and now you're you're up to for five, ten kilometers. And for, uh, fiber optic, 30km for, uh, the heavy bomber drones with 60 to 100km. Is that right? I mean, it keeps on getting broader. So in that zone, this is people have been talking about that's the kill zone. Yes. So so the the personnel are outside on either side of the kill zone because to go into that zone is deadly.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes.

Craig Smith: Uh, do you think that's a good thing? Because at least it creates a separation of the, of the two armies.

Maj. Phoenix: Mhm. You mean the, uh, kill zone? It's good or not so good. Yes, it's.

Craig Smith: And it's getting wider.

Maj. Phoenix: So, first of all, the distance between position and that creates this range of kill zone dependent current technology. So this kill zone extended by new new new drone technologies. So I think the distance of kill zone is a maximum distance of drone flights. So for now drone can fly up to 30km on fiber optic. So it's a distance between position of drone operators. Uh, I think, uh, this, uh, kill zone, uh, help us to place our personnel far away from our enemy. Without direction or direct contact.

Craig Smith: Right.

Maj. Phoenix: So it's, uh, we have, uh, this kill zone. Create a war of drones. Not war of humans. So drones try to hit other drones.

Craig Smith: But that's better than humans hitting other.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. It helps us to save human lives.

Craig Smith: Yeah. I mean, when we were starting, I said I wanted to talk because with the FPV drones are most of the pilots looking on a screen or some wearing headsets.

Maj. Phoenix: Um, some, some pilots are using uh, glasses.

Craig Smith: Right.

Maj. Phoenix: And many pilots using ground station with screens.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Uh, and you know, all of us in, in the West have watched and I mean the West, meaning, uh, on, uh, in North America. I have watched, uh, videos of, of FB drones. It's, you're not in direct contact, but it's a very intimate, uh, weapon because you, you identify a soldier, you follow him as he tries to hide, uh, and then you kill him. That must be very difficult for the operators. And I know you said that's a sensitive topic, but can you talk at all about how how? I mean, have you been a drone operator as well? I think you were like the number 2 or 3 person at lasers. Right. Weren't you very early?

Maj. Phoenix: I'm from first day in first day from first day and, uh, two two years. I act as a bomber pilot and I create our first drone and create first airplane.

Craig Smith: So that's okay. I mean, you've operated FPV drones. Is it? I mean obviously it's easier psychologically to operate a heavy bomber.

Maj. Phoenix: It's just different. It's not easier. I think it's the same. Many of our pilots can operate any any drones.

Craig Smith: I don't mean difficult. I mean difficult psychologically.

Maj. Phoenix: No no it's not difficult.

Craig Smith: Yeah. But when you see a Russian soldier saying no, no, no. And then you.

Maj. Phoenix: First of all, we are military. We protect our country. We protect our civilian. We protect our land. Yeah. So, uh. I think all our enemies is a is a military target. Yeah. It's our enemy, first of all. And I think, uh, about, uh, if I see, uh, enemy soldier, I understand it's, uh, it's my enemy. It's not a human. It's enemy. And they they are in our land.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Of course.

Maj. Phoenix: It's okay for us to destroy everyone who tried to kill our people, who try to kill civilians, who try to to get our land. And, uh, first of all, we protect our country. It's our main goal.

Craig Smith: That's right. And I, and I understand that, and I understand the ethics of that. I'm not talking about ethics. I'm talking about the psychological impact.

Maj. Phoenix: If if we stay outside our borders.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, They will be live if they cross these borders and they are in our land.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: They are enemies.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Enemies for us. And they are targets for us.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: That's all.

Craig Smith: Yeah. So? So your pilots, it doesn't change them.

Maj. Phoenix: Many of our pilots think, uh, this way. And this is my position, I think. Uh, it's my explanation of the situation. And I know many of our pilots think, uh, thinking like me.

Craig Smith: Right. Yeah. Um, I, I read that Lazar's group has destroyed billions of dollars worth of Russian hardware. Um, I'm also interested in this system. I don't know when it started of points that you get. So many drone operators get so many points for destroying a tank, so many points for destroying, uh, infrastructure, so many points for, uh, killing a soldier, so many points for wounding a soldier. Uh, what is, do you know that, uh, hierarchy of points? Oh.

Maj. Phoenix: You ask me about points system. Yes.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: It's it's very nice system. It helps us, uh, it helps military units to get extra channel of supply and drones. So they destroy targets, they do some flights, and after that they can get, uh, another parts, uh, another drones to, to do Other operations overflights I see.

Craig Smith: So the higher your point score, uh, than resources are directed to you. If you have a lower point score, you may lose. Um.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, first of all, it's competition for manufacturers. Uh, they need to produce more effective drones. I see a lower price and, uh, military units, uh, uh, can buy it's, it's like a e-shop. Yes. You can order some devices and pay for these devices by points. I see it's like a virtual money virtual fence. So for military, it's, um, rating of, uh, units, uh, help to attract personnel, high quality, high skilled personnel who can operate as drones and he targets and earn more points.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Wow. That's amazing.

Maj. Phoenix: Nice system. So it helps. Uh, I think it helped drone direction to to grow, to grow faster and be more effective.

Craig Smith: And you're originally in, in networking. How does all of that information get aggregated? You have an FPV drone. You kill a soldier. The operator uploads that to some central server.

Maj. Phoenix: Every every flights overheating off target. Uh, information about this sent to this system. It's a video footage, maybe pictures description of, uh, device that, uh, used by operator, uh, who were and results of hitting all this information uploaded to the system. And after checking all of this, this target. Moved to to account results of hitting this target. Add to points. Add to account of these units.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And and it's a central system for all units. Yes. And what's the name of that system.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh. Army. Bonus.

Craig Smith: Army.

Maj. Phoenix: Army of drones. Bonus system.

Craig Smith: Army of drones. Bonus policy.

Maj. Phoenix: Bonus. Army of drones. It's the first part and second part. Bonus.

Craig Smith: I'm not catching the last word.

Maj. Phoenix: Bonus.

Craig Smith: B, spell it BONOU. Oh, bonus bonus. Army of drones. Bonus. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And who? Who? Because I'm trying to talk to Brave one who I think developed that system. Who who manages that system.

Maj. Phoenix: Mhm. The part of the system is brave one market. It's marketplace of drones and other devices related to drones. So this rating help military units to earn points. It's like a virtual font. And after that they spend this virtual funds to get to to order some type of drones. It's extra channel for this unit, how they can get more drones.

Craig Smith: You're collecting tremendous amounts of data and that data is very valuable. Uh, is, is there AI involved in analyzing that data? Sometimes, yeah. So you, you have the separation of the, of the two armies because of the kill zone Is that primarily why the the front line has not moved very much?

Maj. Phoenix: Sometimes, yes, because they can't move very fast if they try to move inside this kill zone. Usually they they are destroyed. A drone can detect this movement and after that, in real, real time, send this video, send this information to different units that can start, uh, operation to that help us to destroy them.

Craig Smith: There is some movement, right? Mm. Moving from from the Russian side, uh, advancing.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. It's it's, they usually try to move. They try to move their personnel and they sometimes try to move some vehicles. But all, all this movement, uh, well known for us because we have a lot of ISIL drones and we can control this area. And after they fix some movement, we start to fly. That's, uh, areas and destroy all, all, all vehicles and all enemy personnel.

Craig Smith: In the same on the on the Ukrainian side.

Maj. Phoenix: I think so because, uh, very it's um. Our enemy have the same devices. Yes. Same drones. I said drones and FPV drones and fiber optics. So they try to control this area to.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: That's why this area called kill zone.

Craig Smith: Yeah. It seems again, if if the Ukrainian tech can adopt more autonomous technology and increased production, you can flood the. The zone. Just like Russia tries to overcome the defenses. With the Shaheed drones, you could overcome the defenses if you have enough drones. Is that part of the plan or how do you get to that level? Is it a matter of of drone production? What's, uh, creating that kind of stalemate?

Maj. Phoenix: I think, uh, first of all, it's new technology. Yeah, it's AI, it's a future of drones. And so I think more drones, more drones, the newest technologies using new something new.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: And after maybe a few months, all these new technologies. Start. Understandable and well known for our enemy. And we need to invite some. And we need to invent some, some new, some new tactics, some new devices, some new technologies.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Do you have a big R&D department that's always trying new technology sends it to the battlefield. If it doesn't work, they send it back. These are the problems. I mean, are you always working on new tech?

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. We're always working on something new and new technologies we try to to do to create new devices, new software, new options. Uh, and we, we have our own R&D and we communicate with all the manufacturers. Uh, and if we find some interesting devices or some interesting features that are key that we can, uh, install in our devices, usually we start testing these features and devices on battlefield. And if we have a positive results, uh, we cooperate with these manufacturers to, to use this, uh, devices or technologies.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And can you give an example of what obviously you don't want to give away with.

Maj. Phoenix: The sensitive information. Yeah. Unfortunately, I can share this with you.

Craig Smith: Right? Right. But it's the same sort of progress starting with the Starlink Heavy bombers moving to ISR. Moving to FB. I mean, there's there's always some development. Is that moving very fast?

Maj. Phoenix: Um, I think, um. Uh, our success is the result of cooperation with manufacturers, with engineers, with manufacturers. It's a fast feedback after using in real, uh, battlefield. So, uh, if, uh, if, uh, manufacturers get this feedback, they understand how it works and in real situation. Yeah. Not while testing. Yeah, maybe around Kyiv, it's different. And they understand that they need, uh, what they need to, to change changes that they need to do maybe some, some new options. Maybe They always know what we what we do and how it works in real situation.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And they get their information from the Central Data Bank or directly from.

Maj. Phoenix: They get reports from pilots. After each flight. They can get telemetry log, they can get other information, and they can get any information that they ask that they need.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Do you think that, uh, traditional infantry and tank warfare is finished, uh, globally with this tech and. Is our, our navies obsolete? Uh, are, is the Air force. I mean, how important is the Air Force given that you have drone technology.

Maj. Phoenix: I think Air Force is very important, a very important part. I think, uh, maybe ground forces is very important because they need to. Keep this ground position and drones help them to, uh, to protect this ground position and help to destroy enemy ground positions. So, but I think that it's a it's a past.

Craig Smith: It's a past.

Maj. Phoenix: We don't need. Thanks.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, it's very expensive, and it's very easy to destroy now.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: And drone is a future.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I'm wondering, though, is, is the future for ground warfare or is it the future? I mean, Air Force, you, you they're developing remote controlled, uh, fighter jets and. And bombers. Yes. Uh, you know, which in effect are much, much bigger drones. Uh, you're removing the human from the, uh, from as a target. Uh, you, I mean, have you thought about this, or are you just waiting for the war to end and you can go back to your business?

Maj. Phoenix: I think it's, it's a future, a big, big drones, unmanned, uh, big planes, maybe, uh, now we have a lot of different unmanned ground vehicles. So.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Are you using I saw what was that company? The one we saw at the, with the, with the small unmanned.

Maj. Phoenix: Ugvugvu ground platform. Ugv unmanned ground vehicle, right.

Craig Smith: And the company was. Right, Kermit?

Maj. Phoenix: It's one of manufacturers of ground unmanned ground platforms.

Craig Smith: Right. Are you guys using that as well?

Maj. Phoenix: Now we start using this type of vehicles, uh, for logistics. It helps us to move.

Craig Smith: Supply and.

Maj. Phoenix: Supply to our takeoff position and so on.

Craig Smith: Yeah. But not yet as an armed. Uh, no. No. No. Unit. Yeah. And why not? As an armed unit, just.

Maj. Phoenix: Our main direction is vehicles and big drones.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: So.

Craig Smith: And you personally, what what is your, uh, points, your, your score or your. Uh.

Maj. Phoenix: I destroy many, many targets and do a lot of flights. And for example, in my account, it's, uh, 28. Thanks.

Craig Smith: Wow.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. As a bomber pilot.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: So.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And the point system is that per individual or is it per unit?

Maj. Phoenix: It's my result as a pilot. And, uh, it was a result of a unit. We can see every, every month, uh, as army of drones bonus system rank. So but it was at a third place.

Craig Smith: You were first lasers was first.

Maj. Phoenix: Third three.

Craig Smith: Third place.

Maj. Phoenix: December 25th. Third three.

Craig Smith: Three for all or only for tanks.

Maj. Phoenix: No. No. No. Total. Total. Total.

Craig Smith: And that.

Maj. Phoenix: But that. Tanks on first place. Tanks. Artillery. Armored. Uh. Machine learning. And second place anti-aircraft system.

Craig Smith: I see. Yeah. Uh. Wow. And and that's a score per unit or.

Maj. Phoenix: It's a rank between all units. I see. Total. Total place of rank is three.

Craig Smith: Right.

Maj. Phoenix: Third and in direction of, uh, separate type of targets. Uh, tanks. We are first from all units. First place. Artillery mining. Uh. Second place anti-aircraft system.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: And armored vehicle. Armored machine.

Craig Smith: Yeah. But I mean, is the is the is that ranking for the lasers group?

Maj. Phoenix: No, it's ranking for all all military units who use drones. It's a crew of one bomber who connect batteries and ammunition. It's three persons each, each each um, every every bomber, every take off point. Uh. Have, uh, three persons for for preparing for takeoff, uh, changing batteries.

Craig Smith: Do, does do those three person have a ranking within Lazar's group?

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. Yeah, sure. It's it's, uh, how many flights then they, uh, prepare how many maybe targets destroyed by drones that they, uh, prepare for operation. Yes.

Craig Smith: And then that's grouped together with all of the other laser teams.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. Inside our laser teams, we know the results of, uh, maybe each crew, maybe each person, uh, result of Cyrus.

Craig Smith: Right. And then, but this like number three ranking, that's for Lazar's group against Azov against.

Maj. Phoenix: Against other drone units.

Craig Smith: Right? Right.

Maj. Phoenix: It's a global rating, right? Between all units that use drones.

Craig Smith: I see. Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: That's our total results of points. Show us that we, uh, one of, uh, most representative unit.

Craig Smith: And that as you said it, it's feedback to the manufacturers about what's working. Uh, the, the unit gets more points to spend on, on drones. Uh, but it's also, uh, like an incentive.

Maj. Phoenix: The main goal. It's it's war. First of all, we are military. We need to to do our tasks. Yeah. And this, uh, key points is extra channel how to get more drones.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: It's not main channel. It's extra channel. Yeah. And this rating help us to attract personnel because then someone want to join to military. First of all, they try to understand who is the best, right? Everyone want to be with best unit.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: So it's extra options for us. It's not mean it's a part of.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Our service. Yeah.

Craig Smith: Yeah. That's fascinating. And so you're the, the, uh, the command and control is, is far back, like in Kyiv or some some place and yes.

Maj. Phoenix: Some, some big city.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: And if it may be Zaporizhia, it may be other city.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And you were saying there's a thousand. How many, uh, personnel in the czars?

Maj. Phoenix: Um, how many personnel we have? Yeah. Uh, for now, it's, uh, 1006 hundred.

Craig Smith: Right. And and how much of that is, uh, in R&D and command and control? How much is on the front line? Um.

Maj. Phoenix: We have, uh, uh, maybe R&D personnel, uh, located in each subunit. So we have high skilled pilots with engineering skills and they act as R&D. I see. So they communicate to each other. They analyze every flight, they collect this information and they communicate with manufacturers. So our R&D built like this. It's a centralized R&D because we have many, many people in different places that can, uh, get this information and communicative engineers.

Craig Smith: Yeah. How many you know, you said there are three man teams, for example. Uh, and you were saying there's a bomber unit, an ISR unit. The FB are with the bombers or they're separate.

Maj. Phoenix: It's separate teams.

Craig Smith: Separated. So how many is, is, is in that chain? Uh, of the 1600 in uh, uh, lasers group, how many are are actually on the line sending drones?

Maj. Phoenix: I don't know exactly, but, uh, I think, uh. Uh, crews of Istar drones, uh, operates from from battlefield near the front line. And bomber pilots operate remotely. So I think maybe about 30%, maybe less operate remotely. I see and other personnel work directly near frontline, but far away from borderline in safe distance. Right, right. And the crews of, uh, different, uh, subunits like ESR, FV, or bomber crews operate on different, uh, distance from borderline.

Craig Smith: Yeah, yeah. You're optimistic.

Maj. Phoenix: About end of war.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: No. I'm realistic.

Craig Smith: Realistic? What does that mean?

Maj. Phoenix: So if you have, uh, uh, sometimes for preparing for next.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Wave. Maybe.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Because I think it's for a long time.

Craig Smith: And is there an exhaustion among the the soldiers in Lazar's group or is the morale still very high?

Maj. Phoenix: I'm in service, uh, for from first day and it's, uh, four years of service for me. Yeah. And now it's okay for me.

Craig Smith: Yeah. It's your life.

Maj. Phoenix: It's my life. It's my lifestyle.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay, well, let's leave it there. That's, uh, fascinating. [00:00:00] Maj. Phoenix: I created our first drone, a great first airplane. So this kill zone create war of drones, not war of humans. Drones try to hit our drones.

Craig Smith: That's better than humans and other humans.

Maj. Phoenix: Help us to save a human life. If I see enemy soldier, I understand that it's my enemy. It's not a human, it's enemy. And they are in our land.

Craig Smith: It's the future for ground warfare. I think it's.

Maj. Phoenix: A future of drones and many planes and drones, a future.

Craig Smith: King. Why don't you introduce yourself, uh, to listeners, some of your background, what you were, you were doing before the war, how you got involved in that?

Maj. Phoenix: My name is Yuri. My callsign is Phoenix. I'm a member of National Guard of Ukraine, of Lasar’s group unit.

Craig Smith: And what were you doing before the war?

Maj. Phoenix: I have my own IT business.

Craig Smith: Oh, okay. Great.

Maj. Phoenix: Um, from 1991, I started, uh, to work with computers and network technologies. And, uh, before I have my own IT company, I provide services for my customers. It was cloud service, virtualization, cybersecurity, computer networks, and so on.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Were you involved at all in AI before the war? Um.

Maj. Phoenix: Not AI, just a modern network and computer technologies. So all that related to computer networks, uh, VPN tunnels and, uh, maybe some electronic devices. It's, it's my direction. I'm familiar with all of this. I know how it works, how I can use it, how I can combine different devices to some, Some big projects, how to get a result, what they want.

Craig Smith: Then. How did you join Lazar's group?

Maj. Phoenix: From first days of full scale invasion? Uh, I understand that I need to protect my country, to protect my city, to protect civilians from all of this. And I spent two days to move my family far away in a safe place. And after that, returned to Kyiv, uh, from maybe the first day I joined to a local defense and start, uh. Start my night shifts on nearest fortification. Others want to to get in Kyiv.

Craig Smith: Right when they were coming in from Belarus.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes, yes.

Craig Smith: Did you know him before?

Maj. Phoenix: No, no. Uh, I had experience, uh, operating drones, uh, in 2010. I built my first drone to expect buildings at that time. I have one big customer, and I support them by, uh, video surveillance system, security system, and computer networks, networks. And I need to expect all these buildings, uh, from air. So I create my, I build my first drone with GoPro camera to fly over this building and control, uh, cable systems and roof and, uh, all technical devices that are Located in on these buildings, I see. So when war started, I understand that we need to use modern technologies, maybe drones, to fly and destroy our enemy remotely.

Craig Smith: Lazaro's group was the first to use drones, is that right? In in, uh, as, as a, as a weapon. I mean, before that, there was, uh, reconnaissance drones. Yes, yes. But can you talk about when the decision was to arm the drones? And was that Lazar's group that did that first, or were there other units in the field that were experimenting?

Maj. Phoenix: We get a first, I think, um, our drone was the first real weapon that can destroy enemy vehicles. And we show this result for everyone. And after that, I think other units start using drones as a weapon. And our our military understand that drone is a real weapon.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Because the first time people saw this was when the Russians were on the road from Belarus, I think, and there was a long convoy that was stopped. And, uh, and then you started sending drones to destroy the tanks. Was that Lazar's group?

Maj. Phoenix: No. At that time we have no drones at all. And only ISR drones, small drones like Mavic, DJI, we, we other units who, who had such drones, uh, use these type of drones for reconnaissance only. Only at that time, we have no other Uh, devices that can damage tanks or other vehicles.

Craig Smith: Yeah, I thought I remember seeing, uh, tanks being hit on that in that convoy, but yes. Was that from drones or was that something else?

Maj. Phoenix: No, our special forces do that.

Craig Smith: I see. Okay. When was where was the first use of drones as a weapon?

Maj. Phoenix: Um, maybe it was May 22nd, our first, uh, missions, successful missions where we can, uh, hit some targets.

Craig Smith: And what sector was that?

Maj. Phoenix: Um, it was the Zaporizhzhia direction.

Craig Smith: And what was the first technology I remember, um, reading the lasers, uh, developed a drop, uh, system.

Maj. Phoenix: Our main idea, the main idea of our commander was, uh, operate remotely and destroy enemy vehicle like a tank or armored vehicle or anti-aircraft system. All type of enemy vehicles that can damage, uh, our military position. So we start, uh, develop this project, how to do it remotely and, uh, main idea to use, uh, satellites connection. So we get our first sterling and try to, to do some devices and try to create some software that can. Use this sterling with, uh, big drones, big, big quadcopters.

Craig Smith: Okay. But, but the progression was you started modifying DJI drones. No no no. They were from the beginning. A home, a Ukrainian build.

Maj. Phoenix: We create a technology how we can interconnect Starlink with, uh, generally speaking, a flight controller inside big agricultural drone. After that start, uh, we want to, to find a manufacturer of big frames, big drones, agriculture, and ask, uh, to install our, uh, special devices with Starlink on this drone to get ability to operate, to operate manually. Uh, and we spend maybe more than four months to create a first prototype of this drone. After that, they start, uh, using use this drawn on the battlefield and try to do our first flights to destroy our first targets.

Craig Smith: So I thought, uh, so you were using Starlink beginning in 2022? Yes. A lot of the FPV drones, uh, kamikaze drones are, uh, are using, uh, radio link to, uh, to the controller. Uh, weren't you also using this radio link, uh, in some of the drones, or is lasers specifically focused on satellite links?

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, we focused on satellite links. Uh, because, uh, uh, we understand what we have a lot of opportunities when we use satellite link, there is no limitation by landscape. We can fly far away and low altitude, uh, As far as we can. Only one limitation is battery capacity.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: And we understand that, uh, drone that, uh, was very popular at that time can bring, uh, only one munition with, uh, small munition. It's not enough to damage a vehicle such as tank. So we understand that we need to, to invent some device that can bring about five kilo payload, not less than three units of this, uh, munition. And we understand that our primary targets is tanks or maybe artillery or other enemy vehicles that can create a big damage for us. Yeah. And we start, uh, work on direction that help us to increase range and some some maybe software upgrades that help. Our pilots to fly easy and control our drone in any situation when we have, uh, jamming or. Without Gnss. So we start flying manually only what we need. Uh, it's a connection to our drone to. Get picture from our camera and control. So our first step is it was one, only one pilot for one drone. And after that, our pilot pilot crew consists of two persons, a pilot and navigator. Navigator. Uh, always know where our drone located because a navigator. Look at The camera compare with satellite maps or other information and using landmarks. Always know where we are and help pilot to to correct direction of flying and help them to find this target that we need and help. While pilots start aiming. Yeah. So it controls wind direction, wind speed, and help to maybe calculate this, this position where when we start to do our first drop.

Craig Smith: Okay, maybe for my audience, you can explain the different kinds of drones. There's FPV drones, which are, uh, you're the pilot is looking through the camera of the drone, right? Uh, then their interceptor drones to knock down other drones or aircraft. Uh, and there are kamikaze drones, which, uh, have a warhead, uh, in them, have a munition in them and fly into a target that can be a kamikaze drone, right? I mean, that can be an FPV drone.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. A FPV drone is a separate direction because it's very small and cheap. And I think the main goal of FPV drones is destroy small small target, not armored target and enemy personnel. It's the best for these tasks. Uh, and this drone can fly from for, for short distance. It's about maybe from from ten to maybe 20km. Uh, So FPV drone help us to control our first part of frontline nearest area and protect from enemy personnel and uh, not armored vehicle like a cars like uh, maybe fuel tanks and so on, so on and uh, fortified position of our enemy. Uh, next step is, uh, heavy bombers that can fly far away and destroy enemy vehicle, uh, enemy fortified position, enemy personnel, and everything that they can find. And long distance, uh, kamikaze drone fly for longer distance. It's about 70, maybe up to 100km and can destroy any targets that they can find. In that area. So I think the most important in all of this is I sell drones because they control this area. They they can find targets and control of movement of this target before we can fly to that position to destroy this target.

Craig Smith: So I'm sorry, in ISR means ISR.

Maj. Phoenix: It's a it's a mostly it's a plane with gimbal camera with zoom and, uh, I drone main main idea. They try to find our target, the control area, analyze, uh, pictures and try to free main tasks of this drone. So, uh, they fly and control, uh, special area where we can use our, uh. Drones to. To destroy targets. The main idea they. They need to find targets.

Craig Smith: But you started with the heavy bombers. Is that what you're saying? Yes. When did you start developing the armed FPV drones?

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, first step is developing of, uh, heavy bombers with Starlink. And after that, when we have, uh, maybe more than ten, ten bombers and we start, uh, fly simultaneously on different direction.

Craig Smith: Mhm.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, from different position from our frontline, we understand what we need more targets. We need more information about targets because we can do more. We can destroy more targets. Only limitation for that time. It's information about our enemy enemy position and location of these targets. So we start to develop a direction of Isaac drones. Uh, our first drone was, uh, playing football. Playing with camera? Uh, no, with, uh, with, uh, photo photo camera. And we fly, uh, alone, um, area of interest. And after that, get this, uh, pictures and try to find some enemy targets on these pictures. After that, we start developed this, uh, direction and create, uh, planes with video, video camera. So, uh, we start new, we create a new step because we have online connection to this camera and, uh, can control area of interest in real time if we need to, uh, if we, uh, understand what we have, uh, some target signature, we can, we can zoom in this area and understand what is this? Is this tank or is this armored vehicle or any different type of target? Uh, so after that, we can create a ISR unit inside our after that, they started, uh, develop the subunit of drones and, uh, get more airplanes. Uh, and, uh, that place start flying, uh, on all front line. So next step was, uh, increase in the number of crews and, uh, all the screws was placed at, uh, on all front line. So every ten kilometers now we have our ground crew with big bombers, and every 20km we have a crew of ISR planes or drones. So the size of drones cover area, uh, up to 70km, uh, from borderline. And, uh, our big bombers, uh, can, can fly up to 35km and they don't beg for a lot. And we have a special designed model that can fly, uh, one way mission and distance of this flight is up to 65km.

Craig Smith: What people in the West are most familiar with are the fives. Did you then develop fives or was that somebody else that developed the five?

Maj. Phoenix: No. All devices that we use, uh, we developed. So we create a technical specification for manufacturers, send them this information and create an engineering team. And together we work on development of this devices. So after using in real battle condition, we give feedback for engineers, for manufacturers and ask them to do some changes. If we if we need. And after that, together we examine the results. They analyze, uh, maybe some technical information, telemetry logs and so on to understand how we can upgrade our drones. What we can do to fly on bigger distance. Or how we can help our pilots to. To be more effective. How to do the aiming process? More simple. Now we have special design software that can help our pilots to hit the targets when they're moving.

Craig Smith: When did you start using these smaller drones that are armed?

Maj. Phoenix: As I mentioned before, our main goal is armored vehicle. But maybe. One year ago, maybe. Maybe two years ago, we started using FPV because we understand that using big expensive drones to hit enemy personnel. It's it's not good, right? It's not effective. So we start using FB to destroy all that we can find. And maybe first ten kilometres from frontline.

Craig Smith: In your arsenal today. What's the. Is it mostly heavy bombers? Is it mostly FB? Uh, is it mostly ISR? Is it I mean, are you where do you stand in that? How do you divide up your your resources?

Maj. Phoenix: Now we use a different type of drones. Uh, this drone can cover a distance from maybe ten kilometers up to. 65 or 70km. So first of all, it's free. It's the first part of frontline, maybe first, uh, now we're using fiber optics so we can fly up to maybe 30km. So HPV covers first part of this area and mostly hit enemy personnel, right? Uh, after that, uh, other part of this area covered by heavy bombers up to 65km. All this area controls by ISR planes. It helps us to search target, uh, confirm destroying of this target and control all this area. So we have, uh, interceptors that control, uh, area near our takeoff point to protect our crews, uh, from enemy drones or enemy kamikaze drone or other enemy drones that can create some, some damage. And, uh, Also, we use, uh, kamikaze drones to strike different targets in distance near 70km.

Craig Smith: I mean, I know the Shaheed drones that that Russia has been using, uh, do not have very precise onboard targeting. Uh, and so they're, they're, they're given a target area and, and then they hit the area. But there's no, this is what I understand. No feedback to the controller. Uh, is that right? I mean, how did the shaheed's work? And, uh, is in, in the interceptors on the, on the front lines where you have these units based, uh, are they, uh, what kind of interceptors are they are they. Are they. Autonomous targeting or how does how does that work?

Maj. Phoenix: Interceptors is a different type of drones because they need to fly on very high speed.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, so interception of it's it's a different it's not related to, uh, tasks, uh, on frontline. Yeah. So we have a special design drones to intercept the jets and we have experience how to do this. And now we increase the number of crews who work, uh, in this direction.

Craig Smith: Incoming drones, uh, targeting Kyiv, for example, that, that you're still using or you the military, the Ukrainian military is still using, uh, human controlled machine guns to try and knock down those drones. That seems like a very difficult problem.

Maj. Phoenix: Now we use all available devices and all opportunities. How to intercept your head?

Craig Smith: Yeah. Do you know anything about.

Maj. Phoenix: Drones and machine guns and ground crews? Everything that we can do.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Do you do you, uh. Are you familiar with Eric Schmidt's swift beat?

Maj. Phoenix: Yes, I know about this project, but it's a different topic.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Meaning it's too sensitive to talk about or. Or it's.

Maj. Phoenix: No, we talk about lasers. I know many interesting information about other units.

Craig Smith: Uh, yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Other technologies, other devices. But I don't want to discuss this now.

Craig Smith: And I was asking, so you have the heavy bombers interspersed with ISR? You have interceptor drones around your units and then you have FPV. Are the FPV. Together with the heavy bombers or are they spaced.

Maj. Phoenix: Along separate sub units. So uh it's a separate direction. We have a different direction and uh, we use a different type of drones, uh, for, for these tasks.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And all of these drones to date, uh, are controlled, uh, through a, a screen. There's no autonomous targeting yet, is there in, in the laser group arsenal or do you have autonomous targeting or even autonomous navigation?

Maj. Phoenix: And now we use, uh, manual control, remote control, mostly, uh, big bombers controlled remotely. It helps our pilot be more efficient. They allocated an inquired situation. They can concentrate on aiming, on flying. They. Not thinking they. They don't need to thinking about their safety.

Craig Smith: Right.

Maj. Phoenix: It it's uh, more resultative and, uh, other benefits that one pilot can control drones on different directions if we need. So. I think it's, it's best that we can do.

Craig Smith: Yeah. But, uh, I've talked to a lot of people who are, who are developing, uh, AI navigation and AI targeting. I mean, the, the. The future is you Send off 100 drones. They know where they're going. They have an on board navigation. They have a camera with object recognition and they recognize the target. This is all autonomously and and destroy the target. You're not there yet. Is that right?

Maj. Phoenix: No. We try to use manual control because in any condition we know that we get a result because all AI devices that help us, uh, to create this autonomous flight group of our drones, uh, now it's, uh, I think it's a, it's not enough the quality of these devices, uh, in the middle. So Or sometimes they can do what we want. And, uh, in. Kamikaze drones usually used AI feature that can lock, target and help, uh, pilot to. To hit this target because, uh, last miles, it's very hard to control. We lose our radio control with our drone because of limitation of landscape. And this AI system help us to fly directly to target and hit this target.

Craig Smith: And that AI module, uh, is that being produced in Ukraine or are you importing that? Um.

Maj. Phoenix: As I know many men and manufacturers of these devices, uh, create this device by themselves. They create a software and the software work on small computers, like a Raspberry Pi or other small devices with a camera. And this device analyze pictures from camera and try to find, uh, target, uh, signature. And after that send control command to directly to flight controller to, uh, operate this drone.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Because what I'm interested in is how artificial intelligence is entering the battlefield. But from everyone I talk to, it sounds like it's being tested, it's being developed, but it's not really being deployed, am I wrong?

Maj. Phoenix: This technology is deployed now and, uh, many manufacturers work on it and try to create a new devices. So I think this technologies is one of most important technologies. So I think, uh, radio links, uh, AI systems, uh, and maybe battery technologies, uh, it's a future of drones because battery capacity is limitation for distance. Yes. Ai help us for aiming without, uh, interaction with pilot when we have no, uh, stable connection to drone and, uh, radio link, uh, radio control system help us to operate these drones when we need to fly to special area where our targets are located.

Craig Smith: The fiber optic, you know, this unspooling thread that can go 30km or even 40km. Who developed that? When did that start?

Maj. Phoenix: This technology comes from telecommunication. It's just a fiber that usually covered up other protected shell part of cable. The core of cable and uh, next, uh.

Craig Smith: The, the the covering. Yeah. But but, but when an fpv, it's, it's, it's just the fiber optic. It has no cover. Is that.

Maj. Phoenix: Right? I try to say it again. So fiber optics, uh, in HPV drones, uh, comes from telecommunication. So it's, it's usual technology inside cables that bring internet to our homes. So Manufacturers of fiber optics just create this big spools of this fibers without shells.

Craig Smith: Right?

Maj. Phoenix: So it's usual.

Craig Smith: Right? But who had the idea to hook it up to a drone?

Maj. Phoenix: I don't know who started this, but, uh, this technology help us to avoid jamming.

Craig Smith: Jamming? Yeah. Are the Russians also using fiber optics? Yes. And they're also using Starlink.

Maj. Phoenix: And they start using Starlink. Yes.

Craig Smith: Yeah. So it's kind of a race between Russian technologists and Ukrainian technologists.

Maj. Phoenix: I think it's competition in technology. So, uh, if we start using some technology after some time, then our drones was, uh, heated in enemy area. They get this drone, expect All inside and try to understand how it works. And after that, start using this type of technologies in their drones.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Yeah. So many people think that if someone talk about this, uh, public, um, some interview or after this information, uh, appears in, in public access, uh, in YouTube, our enemy after a few days, start using it. It's not true because they usually try to get, uh, our devices and understand how it works, how we can do this, analyze this. And only after that, after months, maybe, uh, they only try to use it. And if, uh, this usage, uh. Uh, have results, they try to scale it.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Just the changing nature of warfare, you know, in the in the Middle Ages it was swords and then bows and arrows. Uh, you know, which had a certain range. And then eventually, uh, they developed, uh, you know, guns, rifles, machine guns, machine guns, and the range keeps getting longer. I mean, what's the range of, uh, of a, of a general issue assault rifle in the Army. Uh, I don't know what guns you're using, but what's the range for a weapon that a soldier is carrying today?

Maj. Phoenix: I don't know, because our unit operates only drones.

Craig Smith: Only drones.

Maj. Phoenix: Drone units. I think the drones is the highest level of evolution of all weapons.

Craig Smith: That's right. Now. And so the the drones with. 400m for Kalashnikov. Okay. And and now you're you're up to for five, ten kilometers. And for, uh, fiber optic, 30km for, uh, the heavy bomber drones with 60 to 100km. Is that right? I mean, it keeps on getting broader. So in that zone, this is people have been talking about that's the kill zone. Yes. So so the the personnel are outside on either side of the kill zone because to go into that zone is deadly.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes.

Craig Smith: Uh, do you think that's a good thing? Because at least it creates a separation of the, of the two armies.

Maj. Phoenix: Mhm. You mean the, uh, kill zone? It's good or not so good. Yes, it's.

Craig Smith: And it's getting wider.

Maj. Phoenix: So, first of all, the distance between position and that creates this range of kill zone dependent current technology. So this kill zone extended by new new new drone technologies. So I think the distance of kill zone is a maximum distance of drone flights. So for now drone can fly up to 30km on fiber optic. So it's a distance between position of drone operators. Uh, I think, uh, this, uh, kill zone, uh, help us to place our personnel far away from our enemy. Without direction or direct contact.

Craig Smith: Right.

Maj. Phoenix: So it's, uh, we have, uh, this kill zone. Create a war of drones. Not war of humans. So drones try to hit other drones.

Craig Smith: But that's better than humans hitting other.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. It helps us to save human lives.

Craig Smith: Yeah. I mean, when we were starting, I said I wanted to talk because with the FPV drones are most of the pilots looking on a screen or some wearing headsets.

Maj. Phoenix: Um, some, some pilots are using uh, glasses.

Craig Smith: Right.

Maj. Phoenix: And many pilots using ground station with screens.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Uh, and you know, all of us in, in the West have watched and I mean the West, meaning, uh, on, uh, in North America. I have watched, uh, videos of, of FB drones. It's, you're not in direct contact, but it's a very intimate, uh, weapon because you, you identify a soldier, you follow him as he tries to hide, uh, and then you kill him. That must be very difficult for the operators. And I know you said that's a sensitive topic, but can you talk at all about how how? I mean, have you been a drone operator as well? I think you were like the number 2 or 3 person at lasers. Right. Weren't you very early?

Maj. Phoenix: I'm from first day in first day from first day and, uh, two two years. I act as a bomber pilot and I create our first drone and create first airplane.

Craig Smith: So that's okay. I mean, you've operated FPV drones. Is it? I mean obviously it's easier psychologically to operate a heavy bomber.

Maj. Phoenix: It's just different. It's not easier. I think it's the same. Many of our pilots can operate any any drones.

Craig Smith: I don't mean difficult. I mean difficult psychologically.

Maj. Phoenix: No no it's not difficult.

Craig Smith: Yeah. But when you see a Russian soldier saying no, no, no. And then you.

Maj. Phoenix: First of all, we are military. We protect our country. We protect our civilian. We protect our land. Yeah. So, uh. I think all our enemies is a is a military target. Yeah. It's our enemy, first of all. And I think, uh, about, uh, if I see, uh, enemy soldier, I understand it's, uh, it's my enemy. It's not a human. It's enemy. And they they are in our land.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Of course.

Maj. Phoenix: It's okay for us to destroy everyone who tried to kill our people, who try to kill civilians, who try to to get our land. And, uh, first of all, we protect our country. It's our main goal.

Craig Smith: That's right. And I, and I understand that, and I understand the ethics of that. I'm not talking about ethics. I'm talking about the psychological impact.

Maj. Phoenix: If if we stay outside our borders.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, They will be live if they cross these borders and they are in our land.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: They are enemies.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Enemies for us. And they are targets for us.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: That's all.

Craig Smith: Yeah. So? So your pilots, it doesn't change them.

Maj. Phoenix: Many of our pilots think, uh, this way. And this is my position, I think. Uh, it's my explanation of the situation. And I know many of our pilots think, uh, thinking like me.

Craig Smith: Right. Yeah. Um, I, I read that Lazar's group has destroyed billions of dollars worth of Russian hardware. Um, I'm also interested in this system. I don't know when it started of points that you get. So many drone operators get so many points for destroying a tank, so many points for destroying, uh, infrastructure, so many points for, uh, killing a soldier, so many points for wounding a soldier. Uh, what is, do you know that, uh, hierarchy of points? Oh.

Maj. Phoenix: You ask me about points system. Yes.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: It's it's very nice system. It helps us, uh, it helps military units to get extra channel of supply and drones. So they destroy targets, they do some flights, and after that they can get, uh, another parts, uh, another drones to, to do Other operations overflights I see.

Craig Smith: So the higher your point score, uh, than resources are directed to you. If you have a lower point score, you may lose. Um.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, first of all, it's competition for manufacturers. Uh, they need to produce more effective drones. I see a lower price and, uh, military units, uh, uh, can buy it's, it's like a e-shop. Yes. You can order some devices and pay for these devices by points. I see it's like a virtual money virtual fence. So for military, it's, um, rating of, uh, units, uh, help to attract personnel, high quality, high skilled personnel who can operate as drones and he targets and earn more points.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Wow. That's amazing.

Maj. Phoenix: Nice system. So it helps. Uh, I think it helped drone direction to to grow, to grow faster and be more effective.

Craig Smith: And you're originally in, in networking. How does all of that information get aggregated? You have an FPV drone. You kill a soldier. The operator uploads that to some central server.

Maj. Phoenix: Every every flights overheating off target. Uh, information about this sent to this system. It's a video footage, maybe pictures description of, uh, device that, uh, used by operator, uh, who were and results of hitting all this information uploaded to the system. And after checking all of this, this target. Moved to to account results of hitting this target. Add to points. Add to account of these units.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And and it's a central system for all units. Yes. And what's the name of that system.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh. Army. Bonus.

Craig Smith: Army.

Maj. Phoenix: Army of drones. Bonus system.

Craig Smith: Army of drones. Bonus policy.

Maj. Phoenix: Bonus. Army of drones. It's the first part and second part. Bonus.

Craig Smith: I'm not catching the last word.

Maj. Phoenix: Bonus.

Craig Smith: B, spell it BONOU. Oh, bonus bonus. Army of drones. Bonus. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And who? Who? Because I'm trying to talk to Brave one who I think developed that system. Who who manages that system.

Maj. Phoenix: Mhm. The part of the system is brave one market. It's marketplace of drones and other devices related to drones. So this rating help military units to earn points. It's like a virtual font. And after that they spend this virtual funds to get to to order some type of drones. It's extra channel for this unit, how they can get more drones.

Craig Smith: You're collecting tremendous amounts of data and that data is very valuable. Uh, is, is there AI involved in analyzing that data? Sometimes, yeah. So you, you have the separation of the, of the two armies because of the kill zone Is that primarily why the the front line has not moved very much?

Maj. Phoenix: Sometimes, yes, because they can't move very fast if they try to move inside this kill zone. Usually they they are destroyed. A drone can detect this movement and after that, in real, real time, send this video, send this information to different units that can start, uh, operation to that help us to destroy them.

Craig Smith: There is some movement, right? Mm. Moving from from the Russian side, uh, advancing.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. It's it's, they usually try to move. They try to move their personnel and they sometimes try to move some vehicles. But all, all this movement, uh, well known for us because we have a lot of ISIL drones and we can control this area. And after they fix some movement, we start to fly. That's, uh, areas and destroy all, all, all vehicles and all enemy personnel.

Craig Smith: In the same on the on the Ukrainian side.

Maj. Phoenix: I think so because, uh, very it's um. Our enemy have the same devices. Yes. Same drones. I said drones and FPV drones and fiber optics. So they try to control this area to.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: That's why this area called kill zone.

Craig Smith: Yeah. It seems again, if if the Ukrainian tech can adopt more autonomous technology and increased production, you can flood the. The zone. Just like Russia tries to overcome the defenses. With the Shaheed drones, you could overcome the defenses if you have enough drones. Is that part of the plan or how do you get to that level? Is it a matter of of drone production? What's, uh, creating that kind of stalemate?

Maj. Phoenix: I think, uh, first of all, it's new technology. Yeah, it's AI, it's a future of drones. And so I think more drones, more drones, the newest technologies using new something new.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: And after maybe a few months, all these new technologies. Start. Understandable and well known for our enemy. And we need to invite some. And we need to invent some, some new, some new tactics, some new devices, some new technologies.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Do you have a big R&D department that's always trying new technology sends it to the battlefield. If it doesn't work, they send it back. These are the problems. I mean, are you always working on new tech?

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. We're always working on something new and new technologies we try to to do to create new devices, new software, new options. Uh, and we, we have our own R&D and we communicate with all the manufacturers. Uh, and if we find some interesting devices or some interesting features that are key that we can, uh, install in our devices, usually we start testing these features and devices on battlefield. And if we have a positive results, uh, we cooperate with these manufacturers to, to use this, uh, devices or technologies.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And can you give an example of what obviously you don't want to give away with.

Maj. Phoenix: The sensitive information. Yeah. Unfortunately, I can share this with you.

Craig Smith: Right? Right. But it's the same sort of progress starting with the Starlink Heavy bombers moving to ISR. Moving to FB. I mean, there's there's always some development. Is that moving very fast?

Maj. Phoenix: Um, I think, um. Uh, our success is the result of cooperation with manufacturers, with engineers, with manufacturers. It's a fast feedback after using in real, uh, battlefield. So, uh, if, uh, if, uh, manufacturers get this feedback, they understand how it works and in real situation. Yeah. Not while testing. Yeah, maybe around Kyiv, it's different. And they understand that they need, uh, what they need to, to change changes that they need to do maybe some, some new options. Maybe They always know what we what we do and how it works in real situation.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And they get their information from the Central Data Bank or directly from.

Maj. Phoenix: They get reports from pilots. After each flight. They can get telemetry log, they can get other information, and they can get any information that they ask that they need.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Do you think that, uh, traditional infantry and tank warfare is finished, uh, globally with this tech and. Is our, our navies obsolete? Uh, are, is the Air force. I mean, how important is the Air Force given that you have drone technology.

Maj. Phoenix: I think Air Force is very important, a very important part. I think, uh, maybe ground forces is very important because they need to. Keep this ground position and drones help them to, uh, to protect this ground position and help to destroy enemy ground positions. So, but I think that it's a it's a past.

Craig Smith: It's a past.

Maj. Phoenix: We don't need. Thanks.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Uh, it's very expensive, and it's very easy to destroy now.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: And drone is a future.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I'm wondering, though, is, is the future for ground warfare or is it the future? I mean, Air Force, you, you they're developing remote controlled, uh, fighter jets and. And bombers. Yes. Uh, you know, which in effect are much, much bigger drones. Uh, you're removing the human from the, uh, from as a target. Uh, you, I mean, have you thought about this, or are you just waiting for the war to end and you can go back to your business?

Maj. Phoenix: I think it's, it's a future, a big, big drones, unmanned, uh, big planes, maybe, uh, now we have a lot of different unmanned ground vehicles. So.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Are you using I saw what was that company? The one we saw at the, with the, with the small unmanned.

Maj. Phoenix: Ugvugvu ground platform. Ugv unmanned ground vehicle, right.

Craig Smith: And the company was. Right, Kermit?

Maj. Phoenix: It's one of manufacturers of ground unmanned ground platforms.

Craig Smith: Right. Are you guys using that as well?

Maj. Phoenix: Now we start using this type of vehicles, uh, for logistics. It helps us to move.

Craig Smith: Supply and.

Maj. Phoenix: Supply to our takeoff position and so on.

Craig Smith: Yeah. But not yet as an armed. Uh, no. No. No. Unit. Yeah. And why not? As an armed unit, just.

Maj. Phoenix: Our main direction is vehicles and big drones.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: So.

Craig Smith: And you personally, what what is your, uh, points, your, your score or your. Uh.

Maj. Phoenix: I destroy many, many targets and do a lot of flights. And for example, in my account, it's, uh, 28. Thanks.

Craig Smith: Wow.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. As a bomber pilot.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: So.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And the point system is that per individual or is it per unit?

Maj. Phoenix: It's my result as a pilot. And, uh, it was a result of a unit. We can see every, every month, uh, as army of drones bonus system rank. So but it was at a third place.

Craig Smith: You were first lasers was first.

Maj. Phoenix: Third three.

Craig Smith: Third place.

Maj. Phoenix: December 25th. Third three.

Craig Smith: Three for all or only for tanks.

Maj. Phoenix: No. No. No. Total. Total. Total.

Craig Smith: And that.

Maj. Phoenix: But that. Tanks on first place. Tanks. Artillery. Armored. Uh. Machine learning. And second place anti-aircraft system.

Craig Smith: I see. Yeah. Uh. Wow. And and that's a score per unit or.

Maj. Phoenix: It's a rank between all units. I see. Total. Total place of rank is three.

Craig Smith: Right.

Maj. Phoenix: Third and in direction of, uh, separate type of targets. Uh, tanks. We are first from all units. First place. Artillery mining. Uh. Second place anti-aircraft system.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: And armored vehicle. Armored machine.

Craig Smith: Yeah. But I mean, is the is the is that ranking for the lasers group?

Maj. Phoenix: No, it's ranking for all all military units who use drones. It's a crew of one bomber who connect batteries and ammunition. It's three persons each, each each um, every every bomber, every take off point. Uh. Have, uh, three persons for for preparing for takeoff, uh, changing batteries.

Craig Smith: Do, does do those three person have a ranking within Lazar's group?

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. Yeah, sure. It's it's, uh, how many flights then they, uh, prepare how many maybe targets destroyed by drones that they, uh, prepare for operation. Yes.

Craig Smith: And then that's grouped together with all of the other laser teams.

Maj. Phoenix: Yes. Inside our laser teams, we know the results of, uh, maybe each crew, maybe each person, uh, result of Cyrus.

Craig Smith: Right. And then, but this like number three ranking, that's for Lazar's group against Azov against.

Maj. Phoenix: Against other drone units.

Craig Smith: Right? Right.

Maj. Phoenix: It's a global rating, right? Between all units that use drones.

Craig Smith: I see. Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: That's our total results of points. Show us that we, uh, one of, uh, most representative unit.

Craig Smith: And that as you said it, it's feedback to the manufacturers about what's working. Uh, the, the unit gets more points to spend on, on drones. Uh, but it's also, uh, like an incentive.

Maj. Phoenix: The main goal. It's it's war. First of all, we are military. We need to to do our tasks. Yeah. And this, uh, key points is extra channel how to get more drones.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: It's not main channel. It's extra channel. Yeah. And this rating help us to attract personnel because then someone want to join to military. First of all, they try to understand who is the best, right? Everyone want to be with best unit.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: So it's extra options for us. It's not mean it's a part of.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Our service. Yeah.

Craig Smith: Yeah. That's fascinating. And so you're the, the, uh, the command and control is, is far back, like in Kyiv or some some place and yes.

Maj. Phoenix: Some, some big city.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: And if it may be Zaporizhia, it may be other city.

Craig Smith: Yeah. And you were saying there's a thousand. How many, uh, personnel in the czars?

Maj. Phoenix: Um, how many personnel we have? Yeah. Uh, for now, it's, uh, 1006 hundred.

Craig Smith: Right. And and how much of that is, uh, in R&D and command and control? How much is on the front line? Um.

Maj. Phoenix: We have, uh, uh, maybe R&D personnel, uh, located in each subunit. So we have high skilled pilots with engineering skills and they act as R&D. I see. So they communicate to each other. They analyze every flight, they collect this information and they communicate with manufacturers. So our R&D built like this. It's a centralized R&D because we have many, many people in different places that can, uh, get this information and communicative engineers.

Craig Smith: Yeah. How many you know, you said there are three man teams, for example. Uh, and you were saying there's a bomber unit, an ISR unit. The FB are with the bombers or they're separate.

Maj. Phoenix: It's separate teams.

Craig Smith: Separated. So how many is, is, is in that chain? Uh, of the 1600 in uh, uh, lasers group, how many are are actually on the line sending drones?

Maj. Phoenix: I don't know exactly, but, uh, I think, uh. Uh, crews of Istar drones, uh, operates from from battlefield near the front line. And bomber pilots operate remotely. So I think maybe about 30%, maybe less operate remotely. I see and other personnel work directly near frontline, but far away from borderline in safe distance. Right, right. And the crews of, uh, different, uh, subunits like ESR, FV, or bomber crews operate on different, uh, distance from borderline.

Craig Smith: Yeah, yeah. You're optimistic.

Maj. Phoenix: About end of war.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: No. I'm realistic.

Craig Smith: Realistic? What does that mean?

Maj. Phoenix: So if you have, uh, uh, sometimes for preparing for next.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Wave. Maybe.

Craig Smith: Yeah.

Maj. Phoenix: Because I think it's for a long time.

Craig Smith: And is there an exhaustion among the the soldiers in Lazar's group or is the morale still very high?

Maj. Phoenix: I'm in service, uh, for from first day and it's, uh, four years of service for me. Yeah. And now it's okay for me.

Craig Smith: Yeah. It's your life.

Maj. Phoenix: It's my life. It's my lifestyle.

Craig Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay, well, let's leave it there. That's, uh, fascinating.

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